gospel change in the Great Plains
Big assumptions

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Part 1 in the World At War series, on sin and how to fight it.
Sin. As you read that one short word, a flood of meaning flashes through your consciousness. It may not be related to belief in God or anything theological. Perhaps your understanding of the word is related to how other people have used it. Or to what you have seen people do. Or even to the longings and appetites of your own spirit. Maybe you do understand sin in terms of God or religion. It may be related to God’s character or to the taboos of a religion. Perhaps it is related to a deep sense of tradition. Or a spiritual sense of things that is more mystical than formal.
Many disagreements between atheists and religious people cut back to the concept of original sin, or the idea of consequences inherited from the past. These are typically very satisfying arguments for those involved. After all, each side walks away convinced they bested their opponent. Meanwhile neither side was truly bettered by the discussion, other than an increased sense of their own prowess in logic and debate. The delightfully frustrating aspect of this particular discussion is that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence in the past of Adam and Eve, their activities, and the consequences of those activities. All of these points are beyond the microscope, the camera, the equipment of our age. If we are painfully honest.
What is deeply intriguing about this whole subject of sin is that in spite of these frustratingly unproductive arguments over the matter of the inherited consequences of sin, we find ourselves in a world that most of us acknowledge has the presence of sin, is being shaped by sin, and manifests the scars of sin. I see from my vantage point a collection of painfully disconnected philosophers who readily acknowledge the reality of sin, then proceed to discuss and argue how it got here. The greatest, grandest tried-true argument of atheism and dilemma of historic Christianity is how a good God could allow evil in the world.
And so I assume evil. I assume in this writing the very wrong reality, which some call sin from a theological basis and others call by other names. The very philosopher who argues over original sin, would vehemently protest being shot by a mugger as she walks through the city. Christian bloggers who lean in their underwear over the computer keyboard late at night typing out arguments for the existence of God, know the evil of broken family, the stench of anger, the jealousy of others. Atheists around the world who would go to their grave ambivalent to the idea of original sin and a God who is, have felt the pain of failure, the chains of addiction, the grip of doubt.
Do not mistake. I am a Christian pastor. I do offer a theological definition of sin, a biblical perspective of its origin. But I do not see the sense in arguing over the origin of sin, when each one of us knows the reality of sin every day. My calling is to share the good news about Jesus with people who know they are sinners.
Nowhere in Scripture has God ever instructed or even hinted that his children ought to devote themselves to proving his existence through debate and philosophy. Or to convince people that they are deeply flawed and live in a deeply flawed world. The atheist doesn’t need me; he is content in his logic. The religious person will not hear the message, because they are not a sinner. My message is the gospel and it is a message for sinners. And so I assume God. And I assume sin. And there will always be more than enough people in this world who don’t need to be told things are broken.
J.D. Wymer
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about 1 month ago
Question: (This is something we've talked about before) How would a person understand the need of a savior if they don't know they need one? Most people, Christian and not, believe that man is inherently good and just does bad things from time to time. This was the view of Pelagius in the 5th century that Augustine argued against.
One more thing, the debate is not so much for the two or more that debate, but the audience that is experiencing it.
about 1 month ago
In case it is helpful to you, Chris, this is just the first of a book-length project. So your Calvinistic urges to see my Calvinistic urges should be well-exercised by the time I'm through.
It is not intended to be an argument against formal debates or even informal chat-room type discussions. My point is only that the great majority of those encounters do not result in life change. I am also not downplaying the reality or significance of original sin. What I am doing is using as my starting point the reality of sin that is widely acknowledged.
The next post will either elaborate on the forms sins take in our lives, or go back to original sin. Whichever one is next, the other one will be after that. My apologetic goal is to begin where we agree and work from there to disagreement. I realize many apologists take a different approach, and that's ok.
about 1 month ago
Yep, I'm just attempting to understand where you are coming from better. What your full understanding is… you can’t post half a work and expect there to not be questions.
Oh, just a FYI, there are allot of examples in the Bible of debate with a change of view from one side or another, and instances where there is no change, but anger and persecution.
about 1 month ago
This is significantly less than half a work, tremble because it is probably somewhere near 1/20th of the total.
Would love if you would post those references for examples of debate with those who deny the existence of God. It would be good to see those in context and for my understanding to be reformed by the Word. Certainly the classic New Covenant examples would be the numerous times where Jesus makes it exceedingly clear that he came for sinners, those who already have the baseline of accepting their sinfulness. I'm aware of the mutually reactions of repentance or persecution, very clear throughout the Bible, but am also operating from the understanding that even those non-Jewish cultures were operating from the basis of a deity or multiple deities' existence.
about 1 month ago
You made an interesting statement, "post those references for examples of debate with those who deny the existence of God". Now you made more clear that you want just debate between those that deny the existence of God. So when Paul went countless times to the temple to talk to the Jews about Jesus and His work, being that they denied Jesus (Whom is God). Paul did debate with the philosophers at Mars Hill until he realized that it was not producing any fruit.
Other that that, we also see that we are commanded to give a defense of the hope that is with you.
The best known place in the Bible is when Paul is in Athens, the whole sermon on Mars Hill was in response to debate or reasoning with the philosophers.
Acts 17:16-21 (NASB)
16Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols.
17So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.
18And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. Some were saying, "What would this idle babbler wish to say?" Others, "He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,"–because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.
19And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, "May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?
20"For you are bringing some strange things to our ears; so we want to know what
21(Now all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.)
about 1 month ago
Regarding debate, I am certainly not trying into get into a debate about debate. My context is a book-length work on the battle with sin. My understanding is that faith in Christ involves many things, but one of the things a believer does is fight against sin in their own heart and life. So given this goal, I am going to focus my energy in much the same way as Jesus in the sense that I am going to spend my time trying to help those whose baseline is that they are a sinner who needs help.
I see your reference to Paul going to the faithful Jews in a much different light than you are casting it. Paul still shared a huge common ground of theism and the Old Testament with these people. How many of these people had heard of Jesus? I think Paul targeted faithful Jews precisely because they believed in the one true God, and he wanted them to hear the gospel. It is difficult for me to use that pattern from Paul as a grounds for me to prioritize intellectual debate with died-in-the-wool atheists.
As to Mars Hill in Acts 17, yes Paul does stand before them to state his case in vs. 22. Interestingly enough, he did not seek this out. Rather it was thrust upon him by the philosophers (vs. 19). Moving back to Paul's speech or sermon in vs. 22, he appeals to the common ground of religious belief. I'm still not seeing it man! Help me here.
about 1 month ago
I agree about how Paul approached the Jews and that it is going to be very different that talking to a Pagan. I think what I find most interesting in regards to Paul reaching out to the Jews is Acts 18:4 "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." The word persuade is used… Also in a number of other verses. Just to be safe I did a brief word study on this word and found:
πείθω (peithō 3982)
1. persuade -ed, -est, -eth, -ing
(a) to persuade, win by words, influence, to speak with winning words (b) Middle or passive, to suffer one's self to be persuaded or convinced, to be persuaded in favour of any one, be convinced of, to yield assent to, trust him, obey him.
It would seem that describes a debate.
On another note, an atheist has religious beliefs just as the Pagans in Athens did, they just don't call it that.
(This is a good discussion)
about 1 month ago
That's a great point. Paul definitely is trying to convince them. The primary difference I see is that he intentionally seeks out faithful Jews, everywhere he goes. That is his first destination. He does not seek out the pagan philosophers. Instead, they seem to seek him out and push him into a broader arena. Which he then uses in an effort to persuade them. I still see a fundamental difference between some atheists (notice my qualifier) and the Athenian pagans. Different baselines. They are seekers. Paul uses that in his speech. In response to your point about religious beliefs, absolutely. And this also leads to the question of whether Paul's situation was different than ours (i.e. seeking out Jews) since he was following in such close proximity to the earthly ministry of Jesus and the transition to the New Covenant.
A sideline here is that I don't think you debate a died-in-the-wool atheist to win them over to the faith. There may be other valid reasons for these debates, from the perspective of either side. Coming from a Van Til apologetics background, I would say you are far more likely to see atheists turn to Jesus through life experiences and means other than a debate. Few debaters walk away from a debate saying, "Gee, I never thought about that." They walk away licking their wounds and committing themselves to pummeling the opposition next time. Tell me I'm wrong.